Below are three slides depicting current law, troubling inequities in current law, and the solution to these inequities:
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Some of the inequitable treatment of NY's veterans is readily apparent from just a quick reading of this information directly copied from Article 20 of the Laws of 2000 (here).
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A closer reading reveals much more. Some of the
inequities highlighted in red are actually quite disturbing. It is hard
to select which is worse on this slide: The discriminatory treatment of women;
the devaluation of our victorious Cold War Veterans (6/8/75-8/1/90);
or the complete exclusion of veterans of our nation's longest war
(Afghanistan)? With apologies to veterans of the bloody "Blackhawk Down"
battle in Mogadishu, Somalia and to the awardees of the coveted Marine
Corps Combat Action Ribbon in the Balkans - both also excluded - I
would call it an embarrassing tie. It is all awful. We can do better for our vets:
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Best post yet. Clearly identifies the whopping inequities. Almost unbelievable. Any lawmaker would be ashamed. Can't believe he vetoed it. Inexpensive bill but he is pretending to want to follow the process. Whatever. The Senate (especially) will bring this bill up during negotiations, it is up to us to keep it fresh in their minds. I will send this URL out.
ReplyDeleteThanks. It took a little time but it can work as talking points for any argument/discussion/briefing.
ReplyDeleteAnd now only those actively working against the bill or trying to somehow cheapen it can say it is for 'peacetime service'. It is obviusly aimed at 24 wartime years (1990-present) and does include 15 cold war years.
ReplyDeleteThank you for this!
ReplyDeleteThe new law should include ANYONE who served this Country in the Armed Forces, regardless of where, when or how they served. I know guys who got credit for Vietnam, who never left Florida. I personally served from 1981-87, on a Ballistic Missile submarine, under water for almost 3 months at a time. I'd like to see Mr. Coumo try that.
ReplyDeleteI agree 100%. USN 83-87, COMIDEASTFOR aboard USS LaSalle AGF-3, Persian Gulf, Red Sea, I.O. (84-85). USS Josephus Daniels CG-27 (85-87) Med. Black, North seas to name a few. Would be done in 5 years if this passed, back to 8.
DeleteThe author of the current law (and apparently the governor) seem to think you serve where you want in the US military. As if you could have gone underwater AWOL from your submarine and personally surfaced in Grenada in October of 1983 - thus qualifying for future military service credit!
ReplyDeletePS - you served 7 years on sub duty? No way I could handle that.
I would like to see an override, however unlikely that is, but if we are indeed headed in the direction of trying to secure funding next year, I think the description at the beginning of both bills needs to be reworded. I think some people can't read past the following line: "Provides up to three years of service credit to members of public retirement systems of the state for military service rendered during times of peace"
DeleteThe unofficial summary of the bill, not written by the bill's author by the way, leads with that deceptive phrase. The bill itself, which apparently cannot be read, clearly indicates all veterans will now be covered. The author is aware of the awful summary and has explained in response to inquiries that it is false and inaccurate.
DeleteDo we have a estimate on the amount of veterans working for NY State?
ReplyDeleteAlso, what are the talking points against the lobbyist arguments?
You have as much info as the state on vet numbers, likelihood of purchase, years to be purchased, and age of puchaser. Care to take a shot? Talking pts? Who would engage in a cost discussion?
Deleteeven mr. mcmahon from the empire center said the state's cost of this bill would have been 10- 18 million dollars !
ReplyDeleteThat is the same fellow I emailed to explain his misguided and repeated use of the word "peacetime" to describe all the veterans who fell under the bill - he accused me of accusing him of being unpatriotic. But he did change his words. When I caught him peddling that canard again and I reminded him of the truth again, he accused me of accusing him of telling lies. But he did again partially correct his words. He has no idea of the cost.
Deletefrom mcmahon's website ----- Based on a note received from a reader, a further clarification: as noted in the previous blog post quoted above, the “hundreds of millions” reference is to a total, net present value. The annual costs will be lower: $18 million in the case of the city, which would suggest a figure in the neighborhood of $8 to $10 million a year for the rest of the state. Unfortunately, although the city obviously was able to calculate a figure, the state comptroller’s office did not provide a comprehensive actuarial estimate or analysis of the bill; the fiscal note merely describes the potential added contribution rate per employee.
ReplyDeleteIn brief, that is the city's complete guesswork (18m) he then extrapolated to the rest of the state (8 to 10). Nobody should be fooled into thinking his extrapolation somehow solidifies the city's blind guesswork.
DeleteBut it is good he stopped flinging around a figure of "hundreds of millions" (apparently a reader called him on that fairy tale).
It looks obvious that the wartime veterans of the Gulf War Era were kind of shafted with this bill by having peacetime vets tossed in. Vietnam Era and Gulf War Era are both wartime so they should match and even the pols would agree. Peacetime is another story. Try a bill for wartime vets only and see if it passes.
ReplyDeleteWhile the 'peacetime' issue dominates the press reports and seems to have transfixed reporters, I don't think that is why Cuomo vetoed it.
DeleteAnd the dividing begins. How about changing the wording without the p word and get virtually all honorably discharged active duty vets included
ReplyDeleteI would also add, "And falls in line with the Federal government and about 90% of the United States."
DeleteSome of that 90% is at full cost (like the 1998 NY bill which would have cost about 100K for each year purchased) so I stay away from that argument.
DeleteKeep up the good work!!!I served from 81-85 not during war and work for the county now.....this bil means a lot to me and my family.
DeleteYou are a cold war veteran, as am I
DeleteThis bill has been tossed around for way too long and come way too far. No one gets left behind! Remain positive and keep pushing for a definitive plan of action in order to make this bill a reality.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone looked at the state's consideration of the DREAM Act? I know that the Governor and many legislators support it, as seen here: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/lovett-cuomo-sign-ny-dream-act-passes-article-1.1699418
ReplyDeleteWhen talking about fixing the Veterans' Service Credit law, how does that compare to the DREAM Act? I'm sure the cost of the DREAM Act is much higher than the Veterans' Service Credit fix. Do the actions of our elected officials seem to favor illegal (oops - I meant to say "undocumented") immigrants over our own veterans? Everything needs to be taken in context.
I just checked with Senator Larkins office. If you retire before the passage of the "to be written" new bill, you will be ineligible for buyback. The wording was deleted from the original bill allowing those that retired one year from passage of the bill to apply. That just doesn’t seem fair to those at the end of their career. Call Senator Larkins office (518-455-2770) and ask for this to be changed. We want a bill to include ALL veterans.
ReplyDeleteYour expectation should always be that retiring makes you ineligible to purchase military service credit. That is and always has been the language and intent of the bill and ALL other bills for military service credit here in New York State. (Do not confuse that with the 2000 bill's one-time caveat for those who passed on the 1998 bill's outrageously high costs and retired during the specific 18-22 month retirement period running 1998-2000).
DeleteAs a matter of fact, the bill (first proposed in 2011) has ALWAYS been quite specific on the topic: "To be eligible to receive credit for military service under this section, a member must make application for such credit before the effective date of retirement."
How on earth could anyone think you can retire before applying to purchase? The bill is perfectly appropriate as written. Now let's make sure it is part of the budget negotiation. It is great to hear SEN Larkin is on top of the issue.
DeleteHas there been any updates on negotiations between the legislature and the Governor's office regarding funding in the budget?
ReplyDeleteI served honorably Oct 1984- 1988 USMC. So proud of myself, always will be, got out, was told I Couldn't join the American legion, because my service dates were not in accordance with their parameters. Well that sucks . Got a civil service job, no points added, that sucks too. But okay I got the job on my own merit. I'm Proud of that, I got hired at the age of twenty nine got out of th Marine Corps at twenty six. A lot of guys on my job started years earlier than than, I say God Bless them
ReplyDeletebut if I was serving my Country in the Cold War shouldn't I deserve credit for that?
yes , you do , especially if you are willing to pay 9 % of your current salary to get credit for the 3 years !
Deletestart putting money into deferred comp. , when we get this bill passed next year u can pay for your time from deferred comp !
I served in the marine corp in the 80s not during war and you know something I'm proud of my service! !!!!!! You can't expect people to support you that never served. They don't understand., they have no respect for the veterans just like they lost respect for our police, things need to change I agree but for the people who put there lives on the line everyday so we can enjoy our freedoms that they take for granted everyday!!!!they need the publics support! They are getting slapped in the face by the ones who are suppose of be supporting them! The veterans bill will pass but its so sad that politics is playing a hand in this.godbless to all of the veterans.
ReplyDeleteI joined the Navy in 1976 and discharged in 1980, stayed active reserves until I retired in 1997 as Chief Petty Officer but was never activated during any of my reserve time. This bill would mean a lot to me since I just turned 60 and still have 4 more years til retirement from the Dept of Corrections. I am pushing for it to go all the way this time.
ReplyDeleteFellow Vets, Governor Cuomo helped welcome back the troops from the 10th Mountain division today at Ft. Drum. He was asked to make a few comments and spoke very passionately about sacrifice and selfless service of the veterans. In fact, I would say that his remarks were very appropriate and meaningful. Trying to make sense of his remarks today in light of his action on Nov. 7th is hard for me to understand. Perhaps he owes his allegiance more to the bean counters than veterans. Go to the Governor's website to see the speech and an account of the day.
ReplyDeleteHe has people to prepare speeches. Quite frankly, I'm tired of empty words by elected officials. When it comes down to it, they don't have our backs unless we make them.
DeleteDid he have the guts to explain to the 10 Mountain Division combat veterans from Afghanistan that, thanks to his veto, they would not be eligible to buyback three years of their honorable service should they go to work for New York State? I suspect not.
ReplyDeleteOf course, if they had served in Kuwait instead, they would be eligible. Just see the 3rd chart, above.
Maybe he thinks the bill he vetoed is for peacetime service veterans so it doesn't apply to the wartime service guys he welcomed back to Fort Drum.
ReplyDeleteDec 8, State Senator Patrick Gallivan calls for override. Google, Gallivan override
ReplyDeleteGallivan's letter was actually written Dec. 1. I can't believe we are just hearing about this now. I don't see anywhere that Skelos responded to Gallivan's letter.
DeleteHere is the link to Senator Gallivan's article. His letter is an attachment at the bottom. http://www.nysenate.gov/press-release/senator-gallivan-backs-military-service-buyback-bill-all-veterans
DeleteHow do we find out if S7839 will be reintroduced or its funding made part of the 2015 budget? Legislature should be in session now, right?
ReplyDeleteCall the reps associated with 7839, etc (contact numbers on below post) and keep us posted! Wartime and Cold War vets - excluded and otherwise - should all be doing the same. Every day.
DeleteI hope I'm wrong, but it seems like interest is dying out. I was on vacation for 2 weeks and just got back yesterday. I thought for sure there'd be some discussion or updates on here about our bill. 2 new comments since Dec. 16 and not even 4,700 signatures on the petition yet. It was in the 4,600's when I left on 12/19! I've called many numbers and sent many emails. Not a single response or real person on the phone. Feels more and more like we were played by EVERYBODY involved. We were so close last year, it will be a shame if this doesn't happen soon, but for the first time since this all started, I'm feeling very discouraged. But I'm not stopping and I hope you don't either. Happy New Year. Now let's get this done with renewed interest.
ReplyDeleteThe petition has had a steady flow of signatures throughout. But the issue with a petition is - people have to know its there in order to sign it. It's not like the petition was front page news and everyone in the world knew it was available. Its been more of a word of mouth type thing or shared through social media. The petition was really about a movement to override the veto, which most know is extremely difficult to pull off. That ship
ReplyDeletehas sailed. All efforts should be on reaching out to law makers to get the funding into the budget. If it's not there, it will likely NOT be offered as a bill again because we already know it'll be vetoed. Getting the bill funded is the key this year. The legislative "year" seems to start thereafter the Governor's State of the State address so they should be slowly trickling back to Albany over next few weeks. April is usually the budget deadline so start contacting your representatives. Especially the key ones noted on this blog. Keep with it.
The petition was a long shot, but a shot nonetheless and although it was mostly shared on social media that was not the only place it was circulated. I posted it anywhere and everywhere I could. I e-mailed it (as did others), put it in comments of online news articles, etc. and touched base with the "powers that be" to keep it in front of them. It was a good effort! The time though has passed for an override and we look forward to a new introduction of the bill and to budgeting..:)
DeleteI am looking for the bill to be introduced with funding language by mid February. I have been assured its description will be accurate. Once it is introduced we need to hit the phones gathering cosponsors and sticking to the talking points laid out in the three slides on this post and this sample letter provided :
ReplyDeleteThis bill would allow an honorably discharged veteran to purchase of up to three (3) years of service credit for military duty by removing existing requirements that such military service be performed only during some selected time periods, some selected countries, or receipt of some particular medals at particular times.
The bill will primarily impact wartime service veterans. Excluded US veterans, who served in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Guantanamo Bay, Germany, Israel, Italy, Kosovo, Okinawa, Somalia, and South Korea and in all but a handful of nations during the current wartime (Gulf War Era, 1990-Present) era are seeking pension equity with currently qualifying veterans.
Veterans from the much shorter Cold War period (1976-1989) will also qualify. Women from this period are particularly concerned because they were all but banned (by now-repealed discriminatory laws) from the three short periods within this Cold War period that currently qualify to purchase military service credit.
You may or may not be aware that under current law all military veterans who served anywhere during the wartime Vietnam Era (1961-1975) already qualify to purchase military service credit.
(FYI Mayor DeBlasio's letter to Cuomo is a must read for all who want to see the bill pass. If you read it front to back you may be astonished at his high level of support for a bill for wartime veterans.)
Thank you for your updates..:)
DeleteYour last post was a little confusing. You say the bill will eliminate the existing requirements but than you say the bill will impact war time service veterans. Which is it? Is the bill for any service regardless of where you served?
DeleteUSMC Vet: If I understand your first question the answer is BOTH. It is very important that we understand these carefully written talking points so take another look and shoot me an email at militaryservicecredit@gmail.com if you have any other questions or want clarification.
DeleteThis bill would allow an honorably discharged veteran to purchase of up to three (3) years of service credit for military duty by removing existing requirements that such military service be performed only during some selected time periods, some selected countries, or receipt of some particular medals at particular times.
The bill will primarily impact wartime service veterans. Excluded US veterans, who served in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Guantanamo Bay, Germany, Israel, Italy, Kosovo, Okinawa, Somalia, and South Korea and in all but a handful of nations during the current wartime (Gulf War Era, 1990-Present) era are seeking pension equity with currently qualifying veterans.
Veterans from the much shorter Cold War period (1976-1989) will also qualify. Women from this period are particularly concerned because they were all but banned (by now-repealed discriminatory laws) from the three short periods within this Cold War period that currently qualify to purchase military service credit.
You may or may not be aware that under current law all military veterans who served anywhere during the wartime Vietnam Era (1961-1975) already qualify to purchase military service credit.
You're welcome. ERS has to come up with a funding estimate prior to the bill's introduction. Given that nobody knows any of the variables (number of newly eligible vets, number that would choose to purchase, number of years each would purchase, purchase price per vet, etc.) these tend to be wild over guesstimations. In any case, a mention in the draft budget would be a hopeful sign also. That may come out in January and our friends in Albany have been on it.
ReplyDeletePlease see Assemblywoman Amy Paulin's Facebook post from Dec 31, 1:31 pm. It states within than Gov Cuomo is committed to working out an agreement in the state budget for our bill
ReplyDeleteAlso see Her website.
ReplyDeleteAssemblywoman Paulin's Blog Site (December 31, 2014) : "My work on behalf of New York State’s veterans is another high priority. We can’t do enough for the brave men and women who have voluntarily put themselves in harm’s way so that we can live freely and safely. My Veteran’s Pension Buyback bill passed both the Assembly and the Senate for the very first time. Although Governor Cuomo did not sign this bill, he has committed to working out an agreement in the upcoming budget." (https://assemblywomanamypaulin.wordpress.com/)
ReplyDeleteShe is tenacious on this issue (and veterans issues in general) as readers of this blog know!
Peacetime!!!! What a joke. Why the hell do they think there was peace? Maybe it had something to do with all those who served to keep the peace! The world would look much different today if those who served guard and where the primary deterrent during the Cold War had not existed. How do you think Russia and North Korea would have behaved if we had not been standing guard?? Some gave all, some gave more, but we all gave some. I for one believe I gave more than the 18 year old college student who emptied garbage cans for the Parks Department during the summer break, who I might add received credit time. Time to stand up to the ignorance of those who never served a day for their country!
ReplyDeleteState employees, parks department or not, are not the issue. Peacetime vets are not respected - get over it. Fight for all vets !
DeleteAssembly and Senate Agree on Veterans Equality Act: Bombard the Governor with calls and emails. He is the only obstacle. Equity and Honor in 2015!!!!
ReplyDelete